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1 hour ago, ...Dan... said:

It's not as black and white as you make it though, you didn't have the 25 goal a season striker before and as a team you scored a lot more goals from different positions. Team balance and chemistry is much more complex and removing certain players/adding certain players can change the whole way a team plays. 

Ronaldo wants out and a player with that influence and presence sulking around is going to do nothing for players who are lacking in confidence. You can't get rid of all of them, so it makes sense to get rid of what has turned into the bad apple, if only to save morale - it's all good saying about Roy Keane being that way but players and the game have changed in the last 20-25 years - like it or not. 

Also he doesn't press anywhere near what a Ten Hag team would need a striker to, this was a stat taken after 22 games last season:

Ronaldo averages 6.71 pressures per game, 2.01 of which are successful. That is… err, not great. In fact, it puts him in the bottom one per cent of Premier League players. A really strong pressing forward would make over 20 pressures per 90. - https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/cristiano-ronaldo-manchester-united-stats-facts-goals-assists-form/

He's only getting older and he's going to become even less mobile as time goes by. 

Time to go enjoy the MLS Ronnie, you've had an incredible career. 

well we did - Cavani and Lukaku.

I think you're making far too many excuses for poor players - players who were poor, inconsistent and large periods without form before Ronaldo came and after he came - i.e Martial/Rashford/Bruno/Cavani.  

How did these players perform when Ronaldo wasn't there then? Answer - they were even worse. The stats show a far better win percentage and goal scoring percentage with him in the team.

The game really hasn't changed much at all - fans want to see passion, emotion and fight, that will never change. Look at the Liverpool game last night - they fought for everything and got a standing ovation. Salah has sulked, Messi has sulked, Mbappe has sulked etc - all current players. 

I'd take Ronaldo sulking over that useless donkey Maguire any day - the guy has never won anything in his life. 

Your last points are sad really - shows that this really is just you being a hater i guess. Two of the best players in the league last season were Thiago Silva 37yo and Ronaldo 37yo. Daft to suggest they should go MLS when they are cutting it at the highest level in the hardest league.

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1 hour ago, Roux said:

well we did - Cavani and Lukaku.

I think you're making far too many excuses for poor players - players who were poor, inconsistent and large periods without form before Ronaldo came and after he came - i.e Martial/Rashford/Bruno/Cavani.  

How did these players perform when Ronaldo wasn't there then? Answer - they were even worse. The stats show a far better win percentage and goal scoring percentage with him in the team.

The game really hasn't changed much at all - fans want to see passion, emotion and fight, that will never change. Look at the Liverpool game last night - they fought for everything and got a standing ovation. Salah has sulked, Messi has sulked, Mbappe has sulked etc - all current players. 

I'd take Ronaldo sulking over that useless donkey Maguire any day - the guy has never won anything in his life. 

Your last points are sad really - shows that this really is just you being a hater i guess. Two of the best players in the league last season were Thiago Silva 37yo and Ronaldo 37yo. Daft to suggest they should go MLS when they are cutting it at the highest level in the hardest league.

The season with Cavani you did better, because he actually ran about and pressed defenders. You're kind of just proving my point here tbh. He also didn't score 25 goals but others around him chipped in from all angles, that's the potential difference in having a more dynamic frontline. 

A team can't just be geared up to play a certain way and then completely change if that one player isn't in the team...the whole Man United set up was geared to go through Ronaldo so of course it suffers when he isn't there. My point is, could plan A without Ronaldo be substantially more effective than the existing Plan A with Ronaldo? in my opinion I think it can and most other Non Man United fans agree as well.

You have a lot of players who aren't up to the required standard but there is no way that a lot of them are this bad. You can't get rid of all of them right away, just not possible. You have to deal with the cards dealt and try something new. 

The game has changed a lot, players are more pampered, struggle with criticism and are millionaires for achieving barely anything in the game. Never saying players can't sulk either but a player so clearly wants out that has such a presence in Ronaldo, I think you just have to let go. 

My MLS comment was tongue in cheek but he is 37 and you can't get away from that, you can't build a team that is in a huge transitional period around a player of that age - it is just counterproductive, especially when the player wants to go. It's not like the whole Chelsea team relies on Thiago Silva, as good of a player he is and has been hence why they have bought in Kouliably and look like getting Fofana...he is going to be phased out. 

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56 minutes ago, ...Dan... said:

The season with Cavani you did better, because he actually ran about and pressed defenders. You're kind of just proving my point here tbh. He also didn't score 25 goals but others around him chipped in from all angles, that's the potential difference in having a more dynamic frontline. 

A team can't just be geared up to play a certain way and then completely change if that one player isn't in the team...the whole Man United set up was geared to go through Ronaldo so of course it suffers when he isn't there. My point is, could plan A without Ronaldo be substantially more effective than the existing Plan A with Ronaldo? in my opinion I think it can and most other Non Man United fans agree as well.

You have a lot of players who aren't up to the required standard but there is no way that a lot of them are this bad. You can't get rid of all of them right away, just not possible. You have to deal with the cards dealt and try something new. 

The game has changed a lot, players are more pampered, struggle with criticism and are millionaires for achieving barely anything in the game. Never saying players can't sulk either but a player so clearly wants out that has such a presence in Ronaldo, I think you just have to let go. 

My MLS comment was tongue in cheek but he is 37 and you can't get away from that, you can't build a team that is in a huge transitional period around a player of that age - it is just counterproductive, especially when the player wants to go. It's not like the whole Chelsea team relies on Thiago Silva, as good of a player he is and has been hence why they have bought in Kouliably and look like getting Fofana...he is going to be phased out. 

Better? What trophies did he win? The overall performances were still poor - not much different to now, disjointed - manager close to being sacked multiple times. He was awful when he played instead of Ronaldo last season. 

Lets say you replace with Ronaldo with Cavani (or anyone for that matter) now - you think magically Bruno, Martial, Sancho & Rashford are suddenly going to come alive 🤣. Also worth pointing out that none of these guys are pressing machines themselves are they? - if anything they are the ones giving the ball away the most! How did they do without Ronaldo vs Brighton last week? What about the friendlies vs poor opposition before that? They got mauled. 

I'm lost that you watch football regularly and think United play through Ronaldo instead of Fernandes - everything since he joined has gone through Bruno, this isn't even worth debating. 

Everyone knows he's 37, didn't stop him being in the team of season last season did it? Or Thiago being pivotal to Chelsea in winning the UCL. Of course they are short term fixes, this is obvious - but both of them did their job pretty successfully I'd say and both have minimum 2 years left at the top level. 

You are looking at the tip of the ice berg here - the core of the team needs to be replaced - starting with Maguire, De Gea and Bruno. They are far more problematic than Ronaldo - we lose him then not only do you have to replace his goals, you have to bank on 6-7 players miraculously hitting form too. Near - impossible, but if it does i'll be happy and hold my hands up.

You're massively underrating Thiago Silva too here - he brought instant stability and influence when they were on their knees defensively. 

I know you want to push this 'romanticism' narrative - but come on, how is Ronaldo more of a problem than Maguire, or midfield or attackers who have underperformed - try to be objective. If he leaves these major problems will still exist - they existed before him!    

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20 hours ago, Roux said:

Lets say you replace with Ronaldo with Cavani (or anyone for that matter) now - you think magically Bruno, Martial, Sancho & Rashford are suddenly going to come alive 🤣. Also worth pointing out that none of these guys are pressing machines themselves are they? - if anything they are the ones giving the ball away the most! How did they do without Ronaldo vs Brighton last week? What about the friendlies vs poor opposition before that? They got mauled. 

Look I guess we're never going to agree on this but I honestly think there is a strong chance you'd see improvement from a lot of those players. 

Assuming they get rid of him completely and don't have him stinking out the dressing room with his attitude. 

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47 minutes ago, ...Dan... said:

Look I guess we're never going to agree on this but I honestly think there is a strong chance you'd see improvement from a lot of those players. 

Assuming they get rid of him completely and don't have him stinking out the dressing room with his attitude. 

Still not addressing the point - they weren't much different before vs after he came. Just look at the Brighton game and the games last season. The facts don't back up your point - the major problems won't magically go away if he leaves. i.e Maguire and De Gea aren't suddenly going to become pass masters just because Ronaldo has left. 

 

41 minutes ago, ...Dan... said:

Yep - we can all find articles that support our own arguments easy enough

https://www.forbes.com/sites/liamcanning/2022/04/17/cristiano-ronaldo-is-not-the-problem-for-manchester-united/?sh=47992fdd47ba

https://www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/4667360/where-would-man-united-be-without-cristiano-ronaldo-how-his-efforts-saved-a-grim-season-from-total-meltdown

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Well the core of this team went from 2nd to 6th so something certainly changed. Not saying these aren't players without flaws but you can definitely get a better tune out of them in my opinion. 

Do you not think you should get rid of him then? Ronaldo now saying he is going to reveal the truth in two weeks and let drama hang over the club even more? Self serving bollocks. He wants to leave mainly because he wants to preserve his CL scoring record right? More self serving shite.

You've linked two Man United supporting hopeless romantic journos to counter the bloke who has wrote the greatest book ever on the history of football tactics. Hmmmmm...who to trust?

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1 hour ago, ...Dan... said:

Well the core of this team went from 2nd to 6th so something certainly changed. Not saying these aren't players without flaws but you can definitely get a better tune out of them in my opinion. 

Do you not think you should get rid of him then? Ronaldo now saying he is going to reveal the truth in two weeks and let drama hang over the club even more? Self serving bollocks. He wants to leave mainly because he wants to preserve his CL scoring record right? More self serving shite.

You've linked two Man United supporting hopeless romantic journos to counter the bloke who has wrote the greatest book ever on the history of football tactics. Hmmmmm...who to trust?

Nothing changed - think we can all agree 20/21 was full of poor teams and Ole came close to being sacked multiple times - season ended with nothing. 

First Pogba was the problem, now its Ronaldo! Both have or will go and the same problems will remain. 

Whether he stays or goes doesn't really matter - they still need the core replaced. An unhappy Ronaldo is still miles better than Martial/Sancho/Rashford/Elanga or this daft false number 9 idea don't you think? 

You are the only person who uses opinion pieces as fact - its quite funny really. Man writes book, therefore he is footballing god. Rather trust the opinion of some man called Alex Ferguson who convinced the club to get Ronaldo - but yeh, I'm sure he's done nothing in the game compared to a 'tactics guru'. 

 

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Just like I said last year that Varane is washed and finished (and as you can see that's true) I can assure Casemiro is world class. Best cdm in the world by miles for years now. He was missing last year on the worst game of the season for Madrid when conceded 4 from City(benzema and vini brilliance plus fate saved us there)

 

He's been playing non stop for years now though, never had a replacement or someone to take his minutes in Madrid for years. But still he's a world class player as a defensive midfielder. His only disadvantage is building the game from the back, which got more exposed when Ramos left. Still if the rumors are true I'd hate to watch him go but for 80m or something crazy like that and if the player wants the epl salary it's a no brainer he's 30 about to be 31.

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8 hours ago, petros said:

Just like I said last year that Varane is washed and finished (and as you can see that's true) I can assure Casemiro is world class. Best cdm in the world by miles for years now. He was missing last year on the worst game of the season for Madrid when conceded 4 from City(benzema and vini brilliance plus fate saved us there)

 

He's been playing non stop for years now though, never had a replacement or someone to take his minutes in Madrid for years. But still he's a world class player as a defensive midfielder. His only disadvantage is building the game from the back, which got more exposed when Ramos left. Still if the rumors are true I'd hate to watch him go but for 80m or something crazy like that and if the player wants the epl salary it's a no brainer he's 30 about to be 31.

If Varane can stay fit then he's our best defender by a wide margin. Last season he was constantly injured - will see how he does this season before i write him off.

Would love Casemiro, but I'm not sure how real the interest is or if he just wants to improve his contract at Madrid. Madrid already have a few of the best young DMs in the world imo so maybe they would let him go.

Everyday there are multiple new players we are after - its a real sign of no transfer plan at all. 

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Really worrying start to the season, something isn't quite right and even Rice isn't playing well. Bowen has been pretty poor as well and Soucek, Coufal and Antonio all need to be dropped ASAP. The former two have been playing shit for close to 12 months now. 

Still never beaten Brighton in the Prem after 11 attempts now, mental.

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Looks like we were both right doesn't it!

Better and more solid without Maguire and Shaw, also more exciting/unpredictable/dynamic and can press better without Ronaldo. None of them should be getting back in that team now. 

Thought Man United were fantastic last night, can't quite believe the difference between that and the Brentford game. 

As much of a shithouse he is, I thought Bruno Fernandes was also superb yesterday - was fucking everywhere. 

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I'm not sure about that - the pressing lasted about for about 20mins!!! and then we lost control of the game that should have been comfortable. Rashford at walking pace and trying fancy tricks with Sancho, while Elanga was hauled off at halftime - they quickly reverted to last season mode. 

We got through the game because of our brilliant defence - removing Shaw and Maguire from this team is 90% of the problem and it showed - so much more mobile and resolute - we could actually build from the back for once. 

Bruno was awful imo - nearly cost us a goal by overplaying (again), nearly volleyed the ball into his own goal, diving constantly, could have been sent off and then tried to cross the ball when he should have wound the clock down at the end. He doesn't understand how to control the tempo of a game. 

Varane, Malacia and Martinez were outstanding - and McTominay had a good game. 

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19 minutes ago, Roux said:

I'm not sure about that - the pressing lasted about for about 20mins!!! and then we lost control of the game that should have been comfortable. Rashford at walking pace and trying fancy tricks with Sancho, while Elanga was hauled off at halftime - they quickly reverted to last season mode. 

We got through the game because of our brilliant defence - removing Shaw and Maguire from this team is 90% of the problem and it showed - so much more mobile and resolute - we could actually build from the back for once. 

Bruno was awful imo - nearly cost us a goal by overplaying (again), nearly volleyed the ball into his own goal, diving constantly, could have been sent off and then tried to cross the ball when he should have wound the clock down at the end. He doesn't understand how to control the tempo of a game. 

Varane, Malacia and Martinez were outstanding - and McTominay had a good game. 

So you'd bring Ronaldo back in the starting 11 for the next game? the early pressing set the tempo for the game and while it wasn't present for 90 minutes (which is near impossible for any team) they still chased balls down/won 50/50s and carried on winning lost causes. 

Martial Rashford and Sancho has to be the front three next game for me. 2 goals and an assist between them, let them get some momentum and find some form together. 

I agree the back four were great though and Maguire/Shaw should be seriously worried about getting back in this team. 

I agree Elanga wasn't great and deserved to be hauled. I feel like I didn't notice McTominay to much which is probably a good thing.

Disagree about Bruno though, yeah he made some mistakes and acted like a shithouse but he was flying into every tackle and covered every blade of grass for the team. A player putting himself about for 90 minutes is something that you shouldn't take for granted as you haven't had many that do recently. 

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5 hours ago, ...Dan... said:

So you'd bring Ronaldo back in the starting 11 for the next game? the early pressing set the tempo for the game and while it wasn't present for 90 minutes (which is near impossible for any team) they still chased balls down/won 50/50s and carried on winning lost causes. 

Martial Rashford and Sancho has to be the front three next game for me. 2 goals and an assist between them, let them get some momentum and find some form together. 

I agree the back four were great though and Maguire/Shaw should be seriously worried about getting back in this team. 

I agree Elanga wasn't great and deserved to be hauled. I feel like I didn't notice McTominay to much which is probably a good thing.

Disagree about Bruno though, yeah he made some mistakes and acted like a shithouse but he was flying into every tackle and covered every blade of grass for the team. A player putting himself about for 90 minutes is something that you shouldn't take for granted as you haven't had many that do recently. 

It literally lasted for 20mins - not even until half time. I was watching Rashford/Sancho intently and they sort of gave up once the goal was scored - then they annoying started the trick stuff rather than keep possession and Liverpool took hold of the game. 

I'm not really fussed what combination plays upfront in the next game, because I truly believe the biggest difference is removing Maguire. You could have replaced Elanga with Ronaldo or Garnacho in the line-up and I don't think the change would have been as big as having 2 mobile, combative centre backs who are good on the ball and can play a higher line. You can press all you want for 90mins, you don't win games without a solid foundation. 

All four 'Ole' defenders (Bissaka/Maguire/Lindelof/Shaw) are effectively gone now and replaced with better all round mobile players. Just need to replace the GK.

I just think Bruno has world class ability in him - he should be contributing more than just running around making tackles, he has the ability to truly control how the game is played like someone like Kevin de Bruyne, who doesn't need to do all that because he has a footballing brain. Eriksen has really shown how to play with composure - i thought he was much better than Bruno last night. 

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On 8/18/2022 at 12:42 AM, petros said:

Just like I said last year that Varane is washed and finished (and as you can see that's true) I can assure Casemiro is world class. Best cdm in the world by miles for years now. He was missing last year on the worst game of the season for Madrid when conceded 4 from City(benzema and vini brilliance plus fate saved us there)

 

He's been playing non stop for years now though, never had a replacement or someone to take his minutes in Madrid for years. But still he's a world class player as a defensive midfielder. His only disadvantage is building the game from the back, which got more exposed when Ramos left. Still if the rumors are true I'd hate to watch him go but for 80m or something crazy like that and if the player wants the epl salary it's a no brainer he's 30 about to be 31.

Varane is uniteds best defender lol drop harry and oh look a great defensive display

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