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4 hours ago, Olidamus said:

By saying this you are creating an excuse for innocent death.

i'm unsure how that is so. i'm explaining the difference between the penalties for self-harm and the harm of others in our society. the legal—and moral—distinction is pronounced and deliberate. i'll leave it to others to argue whether or not these penalties are sufficient. it's a different type of discussion.

there are certainly externalized costs associated with self destruction that must be paid by others. for example, you may drink or smoke yourself to death, but unless you do it peaceably alone and do not seek medical attention of any kind, the costs of that care are carried by society at large. the costs extend beyond yourself. smokers cost the system more. excessive drinkers cost the system more.

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22 minutes ago, Olidamus said:

This is not logical and makes any attempts at wanting gun legislation to save lives, completely irrelevant and hypocritical.

there is no need to argue for stricter gun laws on the grounds of saving lives; the issue is constitutional. the argument in favor of stricter gun laws is in the constitution itself.

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46 minutes ago, daveyjones said:

there is no need to argue for stricter gun laws on the grounds of saving lives; the issue is constitutional. the argument in favor of stricter gun laws is in the constitution itself.

But apparently it is about savings lives. Thats the mantra.

#nomoredeadkids

56 minutes ago, daveyjones said:

i'm unsure how that is so. i'm explaining the different between the penalties between self-harm and the harm of others in our society. the legal—and moral—distinction is pronounced and deliberate. i'll leave it to others to argue whether or not these penalties are sufficient. it's a different type of discussion.

there are certainly externalized costs associated with self destruction that must be paid by others. for example, you may drink or smoke yourself to death, but unless you do it peaceably alone and do not seek medical attention of any kind, the costs of that care are carried by society at large. the costs extend beyond yourself. smokers cost the system more. excessive drinkers cost the system more.

It is a different argument in that regard.

It is not a different argument when the whole point is; less guns more lives saved.

You could ban tons of shit and it more lives saved. How can you be for one and not the other if goals are for more lives saved? Saying "its self inflected" is not a strong enough defense IMO.

All I am trying to prove is that this gun uproar is phoney and media driven. Its just the flavor of the month. Thats it. it is very disingenuous.

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There is gun uproar 1) because of a mass shooting at a high school by someone who should not have been able to buy a gun and 2) because of the activism being displayed by the students.

What do you prefer, “uproar” or “thoughts and prayers?”

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1 minute ago, LeeannTweedenUSMC said:

There is gun uproar 1) because of a mass shooting at a high school by someone who should not have been able to buy a gun and 2) because of the activism being displayed by the students.

What do you prefer, “uproar” or “thoughts and prayers?”

He wouldn't have been able to own a gun had the local police done their job properly.

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Yes, atrocious things happen and sometimes those things are done with guns. Guns are the easiest accessible means of carrying out atrocious things. The overwhelming majority, in fact 100% of gun owners do not carry out those atrocious acts ... The ones who do are well within the margin of error. Sure, let's come up with stricter gun laws but don't act like that is a repair. It isn't, the fact is that if you want to kill a mass of people then you are going to find a way to do that regardless. 

What do we do when guns are outlawed and mass killings still persist?

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23 minutes ago, Olidamus said:

All I am trying to prove is that this gun uproar is phoney and media driven.

i think it's genuine and realistic given the limits of broadcast media. the appeal has to be highly emotional or it won't gain traction. that's the nature of the medium; it has nothing to do with agendas or reporters or politics. crying people works on television. no more dead kids works on facebook. constitutional arguments do not.

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I think Oli's point is where is the uproar and media coverage of all the death of children by car accidents and drunk drivers daily? Medication over doses are the #1 injury related death right now, yet we don't dial down on doctors like we should be.

I know the shooting was a recent tragedy, and a terrible tragedy, but we're talking significantly more deaths.

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2 minutes ago, Nshesaid said:

I think Oli's point is where is the uproar and media coverage of all the death of children by car accidents and drunk drivers daily? Medication over doses are the #1 injury related death right now, yet we don't dial down on doctors like we should be.

We don't dial down drug companies like we should.

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We're talking thousands of deaths a day though (is drunk driving really an accident though?)

We're talking even more thousands of drug deaths part to blame by drug companies (thanks sec) and doctors.

They all should be causing uproar and logical changes is all I'm saying.  I'm way more scared to send my kid in a car then anything these days. Sending their ass on a bus if I have one.

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3 minutes ago, Nshesaid said:

We're talking thousands of deaths a day though (is drunk driving really an accident though?)

We're talking even more thousands of drug deaths part to blame by drug companies (thanks sec) and doctors.

They both should be causing uproar and logical changes is all I'm saying.  I'm way more scared to send my kid in a car then anything these days. Sending their ass on a bus if I have one

When did you become a parent?

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